[Glorantha] Re: Chaotics and Great Selves

[Simon Hibbs]

Peter Metcalfe realy cuts to the heart of the matter, as usual:

>Being chaotic does not mean the loss of the Great Self - not even
>for vampires (The Soul/Spirit/Essense is not the Great Self).

Definitely, that's something I talked about during the Vampire debate
and it's one of the reasons I started using the term more often,
because 'soul' has become such an ambiguous term

>                                                                                     ...Some
>chaotics have lost their Great Self but the status of being chaotic is
>a passionate rejection of the moral nature of the Cosmos, not the
>destruction of the Great Self.

Perhaps someone could reject the moral nature of the cosmos (which is
transitory and material anyway, for a mystic) and still transcend it,
yet we are told that chaotics cannot transcend. This is why chaotic
gods are excluded from the godworld, and offer no afterlife or
possibility of reincarnation, on which mroe later.


>The Crimson Bat is chaotic yet has a Great Self according to the
>Glorantha: Intro p123.  Sheng Seleris is not chaotic yet he has
>no Great Self.

The case of the Bat is something I've been wondering about, I'll have
to look that up. As for Sheng, perhaps he gave up his Great Self, I
don't know enough about him, but do we know for sure that he isn't
chaotic? He's certainly a strong candidate for having a 'passionate
rejection of the moral nature of the Cosmos', after all why else give
up transcendence? Chaos is all about cashing in your spiritual chips
for (temporary) material gain. Ok, here's one for the Trickster's bag
at Tentacles: "Is Sheng Seleris chaotic?"

>Sedenya is manifestly present within Rufelza.

According to Gods of Glorantha (perhaps out of date), I got the
impression that Sedenya isn't manifest in that way and can only be
communed with at all by the most enlightened Lunar mystics. She isn't
a goddess as such, and offers no magic of her own, which lead me to
suppose that she actualy is the Realised Great Self of the goddess. As
for Rufelza, has she realy passionately rejected the moral nature of
the cosmos?

>I fail to see what the problem is.  Most gloranthans do not know their
>Great Self.  A small minority have realized it while a few others have
>destroyed it.

But destroying the Great Self shouldn't be possible. The fact that it
is possible shows that the Gloranthan cosmos is flawed, and IMHO
that's what chaos is - it's the flaw.

Digression: All of which still leaves the question of the Underworld,
which doesn't have a connection to Transcendence yet obviously isn't
all chaotic. This goes back to a post of mine some months ago that if
Transcendence is the destination, then to ballance it there must be an
Origin and that this is what the Underworld is linked to. How does
this relate to the Great Self? No idea. Consider this area of my brain
to have an "Under Construction" sticker on it.

Simon Hibbs