[Glorantha] Re: Glorantha Digest, Vol 12, Issue 292

[Roderick and Ellen Robertson]

C'est par mon ordre et pour le bien de l'Etat que le porteur du présent a
fait ce qu'il a fait.
- Richelieu


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <glorantha-request at rpglist.org>
To: <glorantha at rpglist.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:00 AM
Subject: Glorantha Digest, Vol 12, Issue 292


> Send Glorantha mailing list submissions to
> glorantha at rpglist.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.rpglist.org/mailman/listinfo/glorantha
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> glorantha-request at rpglist.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> glorantha-owner at rpglist.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Glorantha digest..."
>
>
> RULES OF THE ROAD
>
>
> 1. Do not include large sections of a message in your reply. Especially
not to add &quot;Yeah, I agree&quot; or &quot;No, I disagree.&quot; Or be
excoriated. If someone writes something good and you want to say &quot;good
show&quot; please do.  But don't include the whole message you praise.
> 2. Use an appropriate Subject line.
> 3. Learn the art of paraphrasing: Don't just quote and comment on a
point-by-point basis.
> 4. No anonymous posting, please. Don't say something unless you're ready
to stand by it.
> 5. Do not infringe anyone's copyright. Derivative material belongs on a
> website, not this mailing list. Keep quotes from published works short
> (less than ten percent of the original text).
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re:  Initiation for heortling women (Carl Fink)
>    2.  Re: Glorantha Digest, Vol 12, Issue 289 (Joerg Baumgartner)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 18:12:32 -0400
> From: Carl Fink <carl at fink.to>
> Subject: Re: [Glorantha] Initiation for heortling women
> To: glorantha at rpglist.org
> Message-ID: <20060624221232.GD9332 at nitpicking.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> donald at grove.demon.co.uk (Donald R. Oddy) wrote:
>
> > Given that Ernalda is supposed to be passive rather than active
> > the "I Fought" part seems rather inappropriate. Perhaps the women's
> > initiation is more on enduring and surviving chaos rather than
> > fighting it. So, yes they experience IFWW but see it from a
> > different angle - "I Endured, We Won".
>
> Passive? She's DEAD before the Dawn.  If they're assuming Ernalda's role,
> new women should experience death and rebirth, more analogous to the
> Lightbringer's Quest than to IFWW.  The mystery would tie into the idea of
> rebirth-and-immortality-through-one's-children.
>
> Of course, only the majority of women would end up as Ernalda-only types.
> Others (adventurers) would have later initiations to other religions, say
> Babs Gor, where they'd experience the same events in different ways and
from
> different viewpoints.
> -- 
> Carl Fink                                 carl at finknetwork.com
> If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be.
>         -Bruce Tognazzini
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 02:11:38 +0200 (CEST)
> From: "Joerg Baumgartner" <joe at toppoint.de>
> Subject: [Glorantha] Re: Glorantha Digest, Vol 12, Issue 289
> To: glorantha at rpglist.org
> Message-ID:
> <64283.84.141.120.119.1151194298.squirrel at webmail.toppoint.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Mikko Rintasaari
>
> > Joerg writes
> > :We take nearly aurochs-sized highland cattle and modern horses as our
> > :image of Gloranthan agriculture when even Charlemagne's cattle and
horses
> > :were somewhere between 50% and 70% the size of today's breeds. (Bone
> > :findings don't lie...)
>
> > We?
>
> Creature stats, for instance - domestic cattle is large 5W, bison is large
> 10W. A zebra is large 20 and still larger than the cattle skeletons found
> from Viking Age northern Europe.
>
> > I definitely see the Sartarites riding small shaggy horses (like the
> > viking age norwegian ponies)
>
> > http://www.jaatalli.fi/laidun1.jpg
>
> > And the shaggy highland cattle are not all that big.
>
> Where I live they have a herd of highlands around the corner and a herd of
> bisons 4 km away, and the size difference between bulls from either herd
> is negligible. Cows are just a little bit smaller, fitting the stats I
> quoted from Anaxial's Roster, above.
>
>
> > I've also seen very conflicting views on the whole "horses getting
bigger"
> > arguments. Doesn't seem to be a universally accepted thing. Anyway, the
> > only big horses I think about for Glorantha are those that are used by
the
> > cataphracts in the West (and Carmania).
>
>
>
>
> > :When it comes to Gloranthan ships, we take 16th century Mediterranean
as
> > :our watermark...
>
> > No way. I can't imagine why one would want to do that, when the bronze /
> > early iron age offers such a wealth of sea traditions to draw on.
>
> Early Iron Age sails were primitive, if present at all - the Anglo-Saxon
> immigration occurred on boats like the Nydam boat, a clinker-built boat
> for some 24 people without any sail or mast. (Still a technical
> advancement over early Mediterranean wooden ships which were built shell
> first, skeleton later.) Seaworthyness of Mediterranean galleys was
> minimal, wind strengths of 6 Beaufort meant beaching or perdition.
>
> Compare e.g. Wolf Pirate longboats, which are on par with 9th century
> Viking Longships or contemporary Byzantine dromons.
>
>
> > Foenecian, persian and greek navies for instance, and even the reed
ships
> > of ancient egypt. Much more interesting than yet another high medieval /
> > early reneisance setting.
>
> The largest bronze age fleets of record were the acheans at Troy (with
> "10.000 ships") and the naval invasion of Egypt beaten back by some Ramses
> (also around 1300 BC). Neither were strong on sails, riding out storms or
> currents.
>
> > See Mika Waltari's "Turms the Immortal" (hmm.. translated The Etruscean
> > for some bizarre reason, I see) for some really inspirational scenes of
> > sailing / naval warfare in the era.
>
> Can't really say I was much inspired (although my grasp of Swedish for the
> translation I have maybe wasn't that good at the time I read it). Neither
> did Sprague de Camp's novels from ancient Persia and Egypt inspire me to
> use that as an example for Gloranthan sailing.
>
> On the other hand the first Hanseatic Cogs were built by carpenters with
> several centuries of non-naval building tradition and some
> not-too-detailed observation of Viking or Slav vessels, with a couple of
> typical landlubber errors but also a number of new concepts and
> improvements over the previous ship types. This strikes me as similar to
> the situation both the first Jrusteli shipbuilders in defiance of the
> Waertagi monopoly and the ship-builders after the Closing were faced with,
> so that's the general model I would follow. (Both Jrusteli and
> post-Closing shipbuilders had reports or even remnants of older
> shipbuilding technology to assimilate, survivors of the Storm Age naval
> conflicts like rare Artmali yachts encountered near Umathela (where the
> Waertagi carried the Jrusteli) or Helering designs which may have survived
> in coastal southern Genertela, downsized to fishing vessels.
>
>
> Restricting Gloranthan shipbuilding to Bronze Age or pre-Roman
> Mediterranean technology would be counter-intuitive to most narrators who
> are way more familiar with the workings of the British navy in the
> Napoleonic wars (thanks to C.S.Forester, the Bounty mutiny etc, or pirate
> movies set in 17th century Caribbean). People expect multi-masted sailing
> vessels, with rigging to climb in and fall down off durign naval battles.
> People expect ships tacking into the wind.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Visit http://www.rpglist.org/mailman/listinfo/glorantha to unsubscribe,
make other changes, or view the archives. Glorantha was created by Greg
Stafford and is owned by Issaries, Inc. Issaries, Inc. can be found on the
web at glorantha.com. The use of any trademark within this e-mail should not
be construed as a challenge to the status of that mark. The Glorantha Digest
is fan published strictly under the terms of Fair Dealing. The Glorantha
Digest has no relationship with Issaries, Inc. except that Issaries
employees are as welcome to post here as anyone. With the exception of
previously
> copyrighted material, unless specified otherwise all text in this
> digest is copyright by the author or authors, with rights granted to
> copy for personal use, to excerpt in reviews and replies, and to
> archive unchanged for electronic retrieval.
>
> End of Glorantha Digest, Vol 12, Issue 292
> ******************************************
>