[Glorantha] Mind, Soul, Spirit, Essence

[Greg Stafford]

> From: CJ cj at falster23.freeserve.co.uk
astonishes me with his comments, and I reply
I will confess that this deep theory is sometimes more than I have bothered to
detail myself, but it is fun to bounce ideas around. Hence, these are
provisional ideas at this stage, and of course
YGWV

> Subject: [Glorantha] Mind, Soul, Spirit, Essence

> Interesting. That is epiphenomenalism - mind is an emergent property of
> brain.
A theory which I disagree with, and certainly so in Glorantha.
Although there ARE some groups that claim this even in Glorantha.

> In the real world I adhere to dualism, that is mind (meaning
> here conciousness, the seat of personal identity, usually equated with
> the 'soul') is not equl to brain, hence personal identity is capable of
>  post mortem survival.

A Gloranthan standard belief, assertable experimentally.

> From the viewpoint of a modern parapsychologist with an interest in
> philosophy of religion, using only the source material I have to hand,
> we might surmise...
>
> i) immortality is conditional.  The Atheist No-God folk do not have it.

I have been told by a friend of mine who is an expert on the subject that the
(or some) Neoplatonists believed that whatever the person believed during life
would be the fate of his soul after death. This is not the way it works in
Glorantha, but just a fascinating observation. (And if it is true, then I look
forward to seeing the Elysian fields, Valhalla, etc. etc.) 

> ii) conciousness appears to be a tripartite structure, where brain
> activity in most Gloranthans is currently a mix of Spirit, Soul and
> ssence working within a body.  Think of the brain as a receiver tuned to
> this signal - the self is always elsewhere, so when one enters teh God
> Time, or other ritual state, one is actually shifting towards the
> authentic seat of conciousness, of the real self.  The body and brain
> are just useful transmitter/recievers which happen to normally channel
> most of the Self through them.

Not a bad understanding, especially to differentiate that the BRAIN = physical
part, hence a mix of Everything.

> iii) the undifferentiated self on death persists, but the nature of that
> persistance depends on various factors. It may later be reborn, in
> another body, or it may remain outside of Time in Magical Worlds.  It
> may to some extent be eternal, uncreated, or a fragment of a pre-Time
> conciousness which has splintered, or been distributed over arachne
> solara's  web, as a "distributed network". Are all humans actually
> fractured parts of Grandfather mortal in some sense?

So goes a dominant God Learner theory.  However, not all mythologies 
agree about
this. But the GL said the common ancestor was a rune—an archetypal 
pattern, not
necessarily a physical guy


> iv)  it is possible through mental effort to tune out two of the
> frequencies, and tune in to one, making the self concentrated, and
> becoming pure soul, spirit or essence.  This does not result in a
> reduction of selfhood, but rather a more focussed self, directly attuned
> to one realm.  It is also possible to reject all three, and focus one
> energies entirely on the body, becoming a No-God  Atheist type.  This
> may well be seen as a desirable outcome - see Buddhism for examples.
> I do wonder if the spirit element and soul element for example of a
> Sorcerer might become weak ghosts, or dreams, after concentration.  They
> are clearly submerged somehow.

The "ghostly remnants" is a cool idea . May be true.
But this idea of concentrating and creating a dominant energy/soul is
essentially a truth.

> v) Post mortem existence loses individual personality and self identity,
> and instead enters the person back in to the collective.  Hence one
> assumes that those transmigrate/reincarnate very rarely have memories of
> their time on Glorantha before. Ghosts and other spirits still on
> Glorantha specifically do maintain personal identity and issues, becaus
> in death they have not been severed from time/space by Humakts Sword, an
> have not passed on - this is probably why they are so malign in many cases.

Agreed here too.

> vi) In Animist traditions thsoe who concentrated on Spirit may become
> Ancestral Spirits are still to some extent individuals, but that
> individuality may be a function of the living worshippers mind, derived
> from the practitioners who invoke them.

I do not think the worship of descendants is NECESSARILY the cause of this. It
may contribute.

> A forgotten ancestor would I
> suspect eventually dissolve back in to the collective of spirits, and
> lose individuality.  Ancestor worship allows continued persistence of
> personal identity beyond the grave?

I think that the persistence of spirit individuality has to do with the fact
that the Spirit World is not differentiated into “levels” like the other two
Otherworlds.

Which brings up: I sort of take to the theory that there are several levels of
the Self, visualized as the levels of the Otherworld. Thus the first and most
external levels of self (i.e.- the body) are shed upon death, and as the
subsequent levels are shed the Self becomes more “purified.”

> vii) Essences may be able to create a place outside Time where by
> focussed meditation their conciousness persists after death as
> individuals - that is a Node.  This is uncommon,

Rather the Saint’s fate, in a way. But note that the Saint’s Plane is not the
lowermost plane, and so it is a manifestation of those “higher truths” that
allow a person access to Creator. Because, of course, one must qualify to get
to that node as a follower, and qualifying requires accessing those qualities
that the Saint personifies. Becoming a Saint means a person discovers a new
Node at that level.

> and most enter the
> great monistic cionsciousness collective of Solace, or are despatched to
> a less desirable fate, still not really made clear.  I suspect sinners
> become spirits, souls or just disintegrate on death, rather than
> embracing the sublime oceanic conciousness of Solace? Or are they simply
> cut off from the Great Mind of Solace and the universal collective, and
> hence perish alone, slowly disintegrating as their bodies rot, painfully
> awar eof but unable to achieve that great oceanic feeling and peaceful
> oneness of existence as a citizen in Solace?

Those monotheistic religions seem to agree that there is a place of punishment
for those unworthy of Solace, hence are sent to the Underworld. Since the
Underworld is still a mix of Everything, this is a condemnation to the
Everything World.

> viii) the nature of most magic seems to me to be the writing of the
> individual outside Time, the heroes jouney to make themselves immortal
> and change the universe by stepping outside, then returning. Heros are
> those who do not fall in to the cycles of the collective, but somehow
> make themselves immortal, and individual, by their actions which persist
> forever.

Some believe that the individual heroes—i.e. their soul center—are not 
present,
but have passed onto the higher realms, and left behind this persistent 
“image”
of themselves and their deeds to be a signpost and helper to those who seek
their way. This is a theory, and other Gloranthan theists think this is bunk,
and that the higher self is still in connection with the “hero self.”

> All very wild and wooly speculation, and as I can't follow some of the
> argument sbefore, possbly already contradcited. I have not tried to
> consider the issue of how conciousness changes thriough the ages,
> through the races, or the Id/Egoo/Superego apects, to use the Freudian
> terms, athey are way outside my area of thought.  I'd be amused to see
> how far my quick thinking on the subject reflects gloranthan reality.

I hope the above does some of that.

> I did briefly wonder if Spirit was linked with Id,and the unconscious,
> Ego with Soul and Superego with Essence, but I amy be taking the idea
> too far there.  Trolls  are Theistic, and Aldryami too, so I guess I am
> wrong. :)

I do not subscribe to that idea, myself, nor do most Gloranthans.
Though, as always, there are exceptions and I am sure that there is some
philosophical school somewhere that subscribes to an idea similar to that.

========
Greg Stafford

Issaries, Inc.
2140 Shattuck Ave., PMB #2030
Berkeley, CA 94704 USA