[Glorantha] Earth Tribe discussions

[LC]

Lots of ideas bouncing around.

> From: Simon Phipp <soltakss at yahoo.com>

> Esrolia is by no means the be all and end all of the Earth Tribe.

Indeed not.

> Tarsh has a strong Earth tradition - look at the deities of the Tarsh
> Exiles. Very traditional, centred on the Earth Tribe.

With Maran having almost as much importance as Ernalda. I don't know if there 
are any Maran the Queen cults, though, except maybe for the whole business 
with becoming King of Dragon Pass.

> Various Pelorian cultures are also strong on the Earth Tribe - Pelanda for
> one, if I recall correctly.

I'm really unclear about the Pelorian cults. I once thought it was all Yelmic, 
all the time, but that seems not to be the case.

> Whether there was actually an Earth Tribe in the same way as the Storm
> Tribe or the Sky Tribe is debatable.

Yeah, this is what I am wrestling with. Was there ever one? And if so, what 
was it like? Was there one that basically did not survive the Gods War and so 
had no missionaries to preach it, but is waiting back in the mists of GodTime 
for those brave enough to HeroQuest back to it? 

(Why no, a campaign idea isn't percolating in my brain, why do you ask?)

> Genert and Gata are the supposed heads of the Earth Family, Genert shagged
> his mother, sisters, daughters and granddaughters to father many earth
> deities. Many more came directly from Earth Goddesses through
> parthogenesis. But, were they part of a single tribe? I doubt it. Perhaps
> when Genert was strong there was a link between them, but many of the Earth
> Tribe seem to have gained their powerful positions as the wives or mothers
> of other deities.

But if you don't think Genert needs to be king, can we pitch a good Earth 
Tribe before it fell to pieces? Gata seems pretty super-powerful, but 
abstract enough not to have formed a tribe. 

> So, Dendara is Yelm's Wife, Ernalda is Orlanth's wife, Esrola is Lodril and
> Argan Argar's wife and so on. (Disregarding the fact that they all took
> Husband Protectors in the Darkness, of course)

And are all of them "The Divine Feminine Principle" (Esrola seems not to be, 
even where she is important, but I suspect Dendara is.)

> The Esrolians have an Earth Tradition and much of that comes from their
> original myths, but a lot is imported or comes from the Storm Tribe.

Right. I am sure the Esrolians have myths that don't involve Storm Tribe 
entities, but not that many. I am more certain they have myths that show a 
different view of something more traditional Storm Tribe Heortlings see. 
(Much as in one version Orlanth descends to the Underworld to right his 
wrongs, and in the other, Yelm draws all beings to him for judgment.)

> From: "Joerg Baumgartner" <joe at toppoint.de>

> Now how is that different to the Heortlings after Lokamayadon, the EWF,
> and the Pharaoh on one side and Harmast, Alakoring and the Larnsti on the
> other?

I would like to see other "Orlanthi pantheons" laid out. I suppose you can 
quite effectively argue that the Esrolian modifications are no more drastic. 
(When did Esrolia start this path -- the Silver Age? So that split predates 
all the other ones you list above, yes?)

> Indeed - again not different from the modern Heortlings.
> The Esrolians do seem to encourage other husband cults more than the
> Orlanthi - (Y)Elmali, Helerings, worshippers of Vestkarthen, Argan Argar
> and lots of lesser ones.

> I think that the more sophisticated Grandmothers will see that they
> reconstructed not the original Earth Tribe religion but the time of
> Orlanth in Exile.

That's always been my contention since the great "Why does Ernalda sleep" 
debate. If Ernalda in Esrolia is effectively Ernalda from the time of Orlanth 
in Exile then her link to Orlanth is still heavily exploitable by the Lunars.

> I blame the so-called "peaceful Golden Age" for this. There are sufficient
> hints that the Golden Age started as a time of change and strife, and that
> before that a reign of earth powers was another Golden Age-like structure
> rather than Green Agey vagueness. Neither Yelm nor Genert (or Molamin, or
> whoever preceded as the Earth King) started out as more innocent or pure
> than Orlanth, in my personal opinion. IMO they all had Giants to put them
> to tests.

Interesting. So it Went Earth-Sky(Fire)-Storm(Air), each rebelling against the 
previous? (And does Darkness count in this run? And did Water just miss out?)

> I do accept that the Storm Age was different - it chained and broke the
> new element, rather than sending the old one into retirement. I think we
> may under-estimate Shargash/Tolat.

In what way? 

> Lhankor Mhy's
> love life, 

I'm still pretty uncertain of LM himself. Not a storm god. Earth? Fire? He 
certainly dates Fire goddess, as you say.

> The Orlanthi lack male members of the earth tribe, though.  Mountain 
> deities are (somewhat spuriously, IMO) counted as Fire Tribe even though
> Vestkarthan himself is half earth-being by his landing, and second or
> third generation storm deities are at best half or quarter storm and
> usually lots of earth instead. 

I hadn't noticed that. Mountains do seem to be counted as Fire, which is 
curious.

> (Procreation of Umath's spawn with the 
> Power-descended deities -like Issaries, Chalana, Lhankor Mhy, Donandar -
> appears to be rare, for some odd reason. 

Hmmm... I've never thought of a separate class called "Power descended". 
That's useful.

> This appears to lead to a situation very similar to the Praxian religion,
> which has a brutal sociopath as the original husband of the earth deity
> and a much less over the edge son of the pair as stand-in for the male
> model.

That would make Barntar the prime intiation god. Considering the view of 
Esrolia as a super harvest/grain/agriculture land, that would work well, as 
you say.

> (Except for Aether - who himself is a child of Earth - of pure Earth
> ancestry, BTW: Aether fathered Umath on Gata, Umath fathered Orlanth on
> Kero Fin, and Orlanth fathered Barntar on Ernalda. Oh well, I've been
> reading too much Wyrm's Footprints recently... :-))

So like all too many men, he has a touch of Storm in him, but it has always 
been balanced by his strong Earth mothers.

> From: Rob Helm <parental_unit_2 at yahoo.com>

> 1. Esrolian men initiate to men's gods other than Orlanth such as Heler,
> Humakt, Rigsdal, Barntar, etc. Basically, the men's gods who are obscured
> by Orlanth in Sartar are front and center in Esrolia. Orlanth, in contrast,
> is obscure, worshipped only by specialists and sociopaths, similar to Urox
> Sartar.

I do think the Urox analogy is a good one.

> Of course, the two ideas aren't mutually exclusive. Maybe some Esrolian
> clans follow (1) while others follow (2), or some combination. Clans close
> to the border with Heortland and Sartar might have more Orlanth
> worshippers, while clans closer to the south coast might have replaced
> Orlanth completely by Heler.

I think this is likely, as it has been mentioned again and again that Esrolian 
clans close to the northern border greatly resemble the most strongly 
Ernaldan Quivini clans.

I would think the "Provider Gods" would be the most common initiation for men. 
Barntar (not normally considered a subcult of Orlanth) being more common than 
Orlanth the Farmer. Pelaskos appearing on the coast. Perhaps all 4 providers 
are viewed as non-Orlanth subcults in Esrolia. I like Heler on the southern 
coast since I think the Helerings were supposed to be there.

> One question raised by (2): Who are the leadership goddesses of Esrolia?
> The term "Grandmother" suggests Asrelia and Ty Kora Tek. Or is it Ernalda
> the Queen? Or Imarja?

A fine question. I suspect Ernalda the Queen is there for the Queens of the 
Cities. I think you have to go with some kind of leadership cult for 
Asrelia/Ty Kora Kek unless Imarja has something. Which could be possible. 
Exactly what she is eludes me.  I long thought her basically a giant 
landscape goddess like Kero Fin - a guardian under the HQ rules. But we know 
Kero Fin has a cult as well and its secret is Sovreignty.  If Imarja works at 
all like that then she could work as the source of the Grandmothers' 
leadership magic.

LC