[Glorantha] Fwd: Godi

[Jeff Richard]

Greg's having difficulty with his email (his posts keep bouncing -
perhaps the listmaster can help with this).  Anyways he asked me to
forward this to the list:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Greg Stafford <greg at glorantha.com>
To: glorantha-request at rpglist.org
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 07:06:33 -0800
Subject: godi


> From: Jamie <jamie.maclaren at blueyonder.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Glorantha] Re: Godi - how do we define them in HQ

> Jane:
>> I'd be very wary of assuming a term used by Issaries
>> carries the same meaning as the same term used in the
>> original context, whether that be Norse or anything
>> else.

Always consider the historical definition to be a beginning point.

>> Anyway, the Orlanthi aren't Norse...
>
> Yes Glorantha can be contrary, but if you use a word to introduce colour
> then it is wise not to misuse it. And without any direct contradiction I
> am prepared go out on the limb that the intended meaning was at least
> inspired by Norse practice. Besides we have few references for actual
> Godi in Norse society so we can't over extrapolate with this one.
> (Unless someone can point me to some cool detail.)

Yes, such was indeed my intention. And of course the Icelandic sagas are the
main source, but therein the positions seems much more political than
spiritual.

> Jane:
>> Less formal and more personal than what? The Orlanthi
>> religion as I understand it is anything but formal,
>> and based very much on a personal relationship with
>> one's deities.

Jane is correct here, expecially when compared with the Celestial religion,
but...

> I believe that the priesthood role has been introduced and then
> politically expanded during earlier times. Priesthoods by their very
> nature tend to interceded between people and gods, even when its not
> required. I am thinking subtle influences and political spin here, the
> kind of thing that drives good story.

And Jamies is corrrect here, too. Especially in a historical context, where
priesthoods become fixed and take responsibility for intervention, as
well as a
fair amount of political power. This does seem to occur when populations reach
urban sizes.
But, despite the cities in Dragon Pass, I do not think that they are extensive
enough to have reached the stage of (for instance) celestial priests. They DO
have some social/political power, being head of the temples and temple
organizations.
But, I think they are still outnumbered by the godi by a long shot, who
are the
primary clan-based spiritual leaders.
Consider the current Orlanthi situation to be transitional between the
godi and
priest stages.

> My feelings are based on the flavour of write-ups like Odayla & Kolat,
> some of Greg's stories of earlier eras (like the early missionaries that
> allowed people to see the dawn)

I am going to have one o these tales put online as an example.

> and discussions about such things at
> conventions. These write-ups hint at some of the ways people saw
> religion before it became standardised (all be it, not very standard).
>
> There was a more localised way of seeing the gods in these times. e.g.
> The bear up in the cave is your storm god, I say Orlanth is greater or
> that they are the same, lets fight it out.

This is an astute observayion by Jamie. I want to point out that it was true,
but not because the gods were different. It is that thepeople had not yet
reached a stage where they understood--perhaps were not ABLE to
understand--that they worshipped he same power. They didn't really know about
the gods, never mind the Great Gods.

> And because of the immediacy of the gods it has a very animist-like
> flavour (i'm not saying it was animist, or that it was somehow more
> primitive, just more immanent). And hey, the God-learners hadn't messed
> stuff up back then.

All very keen observations.
But it's not JUST the God Learners. There's an organic movement to the
development of religon, socieity and consciousness.


> From: Orlanth Umathi <orlanth.umathi at blueyonder.co.uk>

> Greg Stafford:
>> I'm backing DD on this. Godi have a regular job, while a full time holy
>> man is a priest. Most clan holy men are godi.
>
> So extrapolating from this (dangerous I know) the Godi outnumber the
> priesthood and differing modes of worship and contrary opinions are
> accepted unless they overlap into clan politics when the priesthood will
> rule on the issue; presumably backed up by consensus or clan ring power.

Yes, I'd say that is true.
The social authority for the Orlanthi spirituality comes from below--the
people--rather than from a conforming powr of above--the priestly hierarchy.

I'll also say that the earlier celestial religion was much the same. they just
had a larger population groowth, thanks to the superior holding capacity of
their lands, and thus developed into the temple hierarchy faster, and have
never left that.

========================
Sincerely,
Greg Stafford

Issaries, Inc.
Publisher of HeroQuest
2140 Shattuck Ave., PMB #2030
Berkeley, CA 94704 USA