[Glorantha] A Few Goddess Comments, oh and godi

[Jeff Richard]

Greg asked me to forward this message to the Glorantha Digest:

-----------------
Greetings.

YGWV.

> From: Jeff Richard <richaje at gmail.com>
>> I've always assumed that Erantha Gor was one of the Scary Earth Goddesses,
>> worshipped at the Kero Fin temples and alongside Maran Gor in a few places,
>> but not really worshipped everywhere.
>
> That's how I view the "Gors" (Maran, Erantha and Babeester).  I figure
> Maran is most likely to have initiates, but even she isn't one of the
> 14 minor ways.

Me too. They are uncommon everywhere, and where found, tend to be clustered
together. They are not found in all clans at all.

>> Babeester Gor is my Earth Guardian of choice, although Vinga should perform
>> some guardian duties. Certainly between the two, there's no need for
>> any more scary worshippers.
>
> Actually, I don't think Vinga performs many ritual guardian duties in
> Sartar.  In Holay and Saird, I think she is the main guardian of the
> Earth.  But most Ernalda "temples" other than those performed at
> places like Greenstone, Clearwine, Nine Moss and Vorda Hill, probably
> don't have any special ritual guardians - any more than most Orlanth
> ceremonies don't have Humakti standing guard outside.

I agree with this interpretation, with some clarification.

The job of guarding and fighting is up to men, not women. During Ernalda
ceremonies the men stand guard, outside the sacred ground. Vingans are counted
as men for this duty. They are entirely inappropriate for standing in
on almost
any Ernaldan rites that require a woman to be a woman.

> From: "Jane Williams" <janewilliams20 at yahoo.co.uk>

> When it comes to how many initiates in each clan, we may be missing a point.
> Yes, a clan may well have a use for X Babs initiates. That doesn't mean it
> gets them. You can't just pick three straws and say "you, you and you,
> report to the Babs shrine for training." They've got to be suitable
> material, and for Babs, that's going to be pretty unusual.

Again essentially correct.
However, the point is that most clans do not have a need for them. The rites
that they perform are not in the annual common cycle. They are
specialty cults,
and most people are content to know that over there by Wintertop the
Shakers and
the Choppers are doing their duty.

> From: Jeff Richard <richaje at gmail.com>

> As a general rule
> of thumb, if you worship Orlanth or Ernalda, your clan will be able
> perform most of the ceremonies (although many subcults will only be
> found at a tribal level and certain aspects - such as Thunderous and
> Queen - will only be found at a tribal level).  If you worship one of
> the lesser gods and goddesses, you will have to look to the tribal
> center or beyond.  And if you worship a really minor god or goddess,
> you might have only one or two centers in Sartar.

Correct.
Many worshippers have to depart from their clan lands for their rites. Lhankor
Mhy comes to mind immediately. Others will depart more or less permanently,
like Storm Bull or the Gors.

>>> FWIW, I think the cult is more popular in Tarsh and Esrolia.  Around
>>> Wintertop, I suspect the cult distribution for women is significantly
>>> different from Sartar.
>> I agree there will be far more in both those places. What I don't
>> think is that there's a clear border. Many clans trace their roots
>> to Esrolia and others will have links with the Tarshite clans
>> around Wintertop. In such cases they may well provide the core of
>> the clan warband - say twenty Erantha Gori rather than twenty
>> Humatki.
>
> As a general rule, most of the Esrolian settlers ended up as Grazers,
> most of the Tarshite settlers ended up north of the Creek.  The rest
> were largely Hendriki (with the usual exceptions).

Whereas I agree with Jeff in general, the borders between the different types
ARE fuzzy. Esrolian clans are in Sartar, some are in Tarsh, etc.

>>> Why a couple of dozen?  In most cases, the two Door Guards will be
>>> carved stone pillars, not people.

Correct.

>>> In all of Sartar, I doubt there
>>> are more than 150 Erantha Gor initiates.
>> A couple in each clan, for ritual as I explain above. Yes stone
>> pillars will do for a lot of purposes but not all.
>
> Again, some clans might have two Erantha Gor initiates, but most clans
> probably don't.  Most end up serving in one of the major Ernalda
> Temples.

I think this is so.

> I think 120 Ernatha Gori is a bit much.  I really doubt the cult has
> more members in most tribes than Issaries or Humakt.  Now that might
> be true in Old Tarsh (in fact, it probably is true), but the Colymar
> have Hendriking origins.

The Tarshites are not particularly more Ernaldan that the Sartarites. Yes, at
the current time Orlanth is suppressed and skews the stats, but without that,
they are not significently different.

> I think Babeester is really rare outside of Esrolia and Old Tarsh.

Babeester Gor is a cult that has a few born-to-the-job devotees (and
almost all
are devotees, of course), and like some other cults their ranks are
particularly swollen when circumstances provoke it.

> From: donald at grove.demon.co.uk (Donald R. Oddy)

> On an individual clan basis undoubtably and that clan have problems
> with performing some rituals - maybe crucial ones. Time to get a
> bunch of PCs to solve them.

If by "crucial" you mean regular, then I'd disagree. However, I think you mean
"extraordinary," (dragons nearby! Severe drought, etc.) and yes, it is up to
the "emergency squad" to deal with those.

> When whole tribes or the Kingdom of Sartar as a whole can't find
> more than a few the mythic landscape changes. Quite how isn't
> clear because we don't have many Ernaldan myths but there's one
> biggie we do know about. When Ernalda sleeps she is killed,
> probably by chaos, and it is her daughter Babeester who avenges
> her and then stands guard until Ernalda is reborn.

When Ernalda is in "full sleep" would be one off those extraordinary moments.
The physical circumstances that would provoke such a moment would most likely
have a large number of bereaved women around who are eager, as well as
qualified, to be forn and to drink the intoxicants of the cult.

> Think what
> the absence of an avenger/guardian does to that myth. It is
> possible that this difference exists and is why Ernalda in Sartar
> is so much more reliant on Orlanth than she is in Esrolia or
> Tarsh.

Ernalda in Tarsh, before the occupation, was as much dependant upon Orlanth as
in Sartar. In Esrolia she is less dependant on Orlanth because she has
a number
of other options to choose from.

Just because women dominate the social structures in Esrolia does not
mean they
become as stupid as men and willing to endanger themselves by joining warlike
cults. Being a warrior is a privilige only insofar as one's shortened life is
relieved of some burdens of survival, which are replaced by the willingness to
expend one's life in service of the community.

> I expect Maran, Erantha and Babeester followers substitute for
> each other fairly easily in myth. They have a similar mental
> outlook. The other alternative is Vinga but her followers are
> going to struggle with the more gruesome aspects of the Gors.

See above. Vinga would not normally replace any Gor in a ceremony. And once
again, where there is one Gor there are many. When the Gors do a ceremony they
rarely need a replacement. Rarely is there a need for just one Gor anywhere.

> From: David Dunham <david at a-sharp.com>

>> I think Godi is the Heortling word for the priest occupation on
>> pg 116 of HQ. Will often be a devotee or even disciple but may
>> only be an initiate depending on who the worshippers select.
>
> I think it's the term for god-talker.

I'm backing DD on this. Godi have a regular job, while a full time holy
man is a
priest. Most clan holy men are godi.

Sincerely,
Greg Stafford

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